What Gratitude Can Teach Us About Love and Suffering: David James Baker

What can gratitude teach us about love and suffering? Isn't gratitude just about being positive and happy all the time? Isn't that what love is all about too? On this episode, David James Baker teaches us that not only is there no love without suffering, but there is no gratitude without it either. David is a very mindful and contemplative guest who we learned a lot from during this interview. We hop you do too!

Links and Resources:
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Hunt Gather Parent
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Original Music by: Kene Terry 

Transcript

Bunny 0:03

Hi there and welcome to the life-saving gratitude podcast. I'm Bunny Terry , and I'm joined by my co-host and producer Johanna Medina. And this week we talked to a friend of mine, David James Baker, who I also consider , a Renaissance man and a philosopher at the same time that he works on the cutting edge of digital technology. So , I'm a little biased because he's one of my favorite people and he also is, as he says, both broad and deep. He's a really deep thinker with a million different ideas and interests. So I know that our listeners are gonna find them fascinating at the same time that just like every time we do this, I I'm always so surprised at the turns it takes. Right?

Johanna 1:05

Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking too , the way you're saying that , like whenever we asked David, or you asked him , unfortunately, I'm not really on this episode because we recorded a little bit later in the day and I was kind of on baby duty, but , I was there for kind of technical support. And when I went back and listened, as I was editing, I noticed, you know, David, he really takes his time in answering questions. When you ask him, he's really thoughtful about what he's saying , which is makes the editing process easier too, but it's also a good lesson I think. And okay, you're , you're giving him a lot of compliments, but he's kind of taking that in and really thinking, okay , you know, how do I address that? And just like I said, being, being really thoughtful about his answers and it was, it's also, I like, I don't know, I just love this episode too , because of the way , um, it started out with one thing I kind of talking about communication and it turned into, you know, a great parenting lesson and , talking a lot about even mindful parenting and just kind of his philosophy on , loving people. It could , yeah, it , it did, it definitely did go broad and deep. So I think that's a good way to describe it, but I pulled a lot of great quotes from this week. So I'm excited for our listeners to hear it

Bunny 2:31

Well. And one of the things that he, I kept thinking about since we talked to him was , he said, you have to live in reality and you have to know that what's right in front of you doesn't lie. Toby and I talked about this a lot yesterday, about how, when we're, you know, in that first half of our life, we spent so much time not living in reality. I mean, people call, call it living in the moment. But I like the idea of living in reality because this is our reality. You know, this moment is what we have. And if we don't live in this moment in the way that David described, then we miss the moment altogether. And what we're thinking about that , the reality that we think is important, which is not really reality, but it's the future or the past is we don't have any control over that and it's already gone. So if you're not living in reality, he also talked about what love means, right?

Johanna 3:32

Yeah. I mean, he has, I tried to explain , I tried to explain this to Leasa too yesterday and I couldn't say it in quite the way he did, but I definitely, I mean, I wrote it down to that. You know, he's talking about how it's might be controversial, but the way he says it will totally make sense when you listen to the episode, but about , um, you know, love is you can't really have love without some suffering and some pain and you can't love somebody without letting them suffer too. And , he related it a lot to his son that, you know, you, you want to maybe protect your kids from suffering and pain and you want to keep them protected, but there's going to be suffering in life at some point. And if you just protect them from that, then , they're not gonna know how to, you know, deal with that suffering. Because I mean, you can't make it through life without a little bit of suffering. And , it also reminded me of, you know, when we talked to Daphne and she talked about resilience and, and kind of building that resilience. So if you're always, you know , protecting your kids or your loved ones from suffering and pain, they're never going to be able to build up some of that resilience. So, but it's also hard, right? It's hard to watch the people you love, suffer or make choices for themselves that you might not want for them. So , um, I thought that was really interesting concept that love love is pain sometimes.

Bunny 5:06

Well, and it made me think of , David said I had to learn to let Zadrian fall. I had to learn too . And he meant that both in the literal and the figurative sense. And it made me think about how , um, I've made a million terrible mistakes. I mean, just like everybody else, I continue to make them sometimes. But my dad, especially, I'm sure that mom did the same thing, but my, but they never, there was not a moment when they said , we really don't think you should quit school at the end of your freshman year and move away from New Mexico state and go somewhere. I mean, they never said don't do that. They said, well, do you need us to help you move? Or do, I mean, they always supported. They never said you're going to fall flat on your face and you're never going to have a dime and it's going to take you 20 years to finish your college education . They never said any of that. They just said, okay. And then they let me fall. And then if I needed, you know, like if I needed a dad to come up and put a new muffler on my car, he would do that, but they let me fall a lot. And I think that's actually a gift.

Johanna 6:26

Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. I mean I think it's proven obviously in your life that, that, that can work out and again, you can't stop some things from happening you know what I mean? Like you can't stop it, everyone's gonna make mistakes or, you know, they might turn out that you thought they were a mistake at the time, but then it turns out that was probably the best thing that could have happened or should have happened at that moment. So yeah, we need to just as parents and as people in relationships, you know, sometimes you have to let people make those choices and be there and just support them. You know, he has a lot of great links that he talks about and we'll definitely, you know, we'll link his bio and all of his information, but David is , definitely a very interesting and, you know, I think interesting person and someone, I think we learned a lot from this week. So I was happy. We were able to get him on.

Bunny 7:30

Me too. Me too. So enjoy. And thanks for being here. We're here today with a friend and a colleague , David, James Baker, who I met in a rather unorthodox way. But before we talk about that, I want to talk about what I know about David. He is, if you look him up online, he is first and foremost, a communicator in several different ways. He's a , he's a digital marketer. He is a filmmaker. He is , he's on the cutting edge of a lot of different digital technologies at the same time that he is a really traditional Renaissance man. He communicates in really cutting edge and really old-fashioned ways that make him one of my most fascinating friends. And just a couple of weeks ago, I called David on the phone and I said, I don't know why, but I knew I needed to give you a call this morning. And I think we hadn't talked in about six months, but what I knew at that moment was that he was somebody that my listeners, that our followers needed to know , for several different reasons. And, I know I keep saying that, you know, he's, he's just this dichotomy of progressive cutting edge digital guy at the same time, as he is, hope you don't mind me saying this, David, but sort of an old soul in terms of how the world works. And he is a genius in terms of mindset and meditation. One of the things he did recently is , he wrote a book called prayers of an old dad. It's a book of poetry, reflection and meditations from walking in the New Mexico desert with his son who happens to be eight years old. So, we're, we're going to post his bio because it's so long. I mean, he's taught all over the world. He was the manager of internet technologies at UCLA. , he, I'm going to tell you when David and I met, I knew this tiny slice about him and , and I , and I still continue after, is it three years, David? I can't recall. It's after all this time, I, every time we talk, I learned something new. So please take a moment, look at his bio. It's probably got some skills that you can hire, but , um, it's gave it, he got to tell people how we met one another, how we connected, because if we, I think we were connected in a different way, in a different world. It's so crazy.

David 10:19

It's really funny. I always think about how I, how we found each other Bunny. I was at the time commuting from San Diego to LA and I had to leave San Diego at, had to be in the car at 4:00 AM in order to get to where I needed to be in the San Fernando valley at six 30. And if I was 15 minutes late, I ended up being 45 minutes late on the, on the other end. And around that time, I was teaching digital media at a Jewish college in the valley. And I was thinking about real estate. And so I started writing to a lot of real estate brokers saying, Hey, I'm a digital media guy. And I have some ideas about selling real estate because real estate really just lends itself to visual media. And I want you to know about me . I don't know if I've told you this, but I must have written to 50-100 150... I don't know, pick a number and one person wrote back. And that was you. And I was like, wow, that was two lessons. One lesson was well , real estate brokers. They don't really communicate unless they like sniff a deal or something. And you did. And so I was like, oh my gosh. And she's in New Mexico. And we own the house, own the house in New Mexico. And I have taught previously and worked previously in New Mexico, went to graduate school in New Mexico. And so then when I spoke to you, it was just really fascinating , um, to make that connection. And you , you brought me back to New Mexico Bunny and what you did so I can thank you. Wow.

Bunny 12:02

Wow. Well, we're so happy you're here. And then you came when we worked in the same brokerage for awhile , but the coolest thing that happened is that every time we got in a room, we, it was sorta like, it was almost like we were combustible because our ideas flew so rapidly. And , you know, the other thing that I failed to say is that your not only a communicator, but you really a creator, you create, you, you have a million ideas and you create this beautiful writing and then you create, you know, you went up to Northeastern New Mexico and created these films of this ranch. I have listed that made everybody want to move to Clayton New Mexico. It was nuts. Not that I'm not saying everybody doesn't want to live in Clayton, New Mexico, but it's so, so you work in this, I'm just curious about, I mean, do you see yourself as, an optimist or a realist? What I want to talk about mindset for a minute because you you're so good at keeping this notebook and recording all of your ideas, all of your thought processes. Tell, talk about that. Talk about how you see yourself.

David 13:25

Um, well , uh, how I see myself , uh , first thing out of the way I see myself is a work in progress and, I see myself for my , uh, my faults and my failures. Um, so I try to be honest to myself about that. And then I look for , um, ways every day that I can build upon that. So I, I start the morning really early and I try to just set some time between three and four or four and five in the morning to be quiet and to write and to journal and to think about what it is I would like to do this day. And , um, so it's a way for me to physically , um, be involved in meditation to, to sit quietly in meditation, in prayer, but also to , um, to keep track of , of those things that enter my mind when I'm in that space. And , um, I remember one time we were at a , at a meeting and somebody asked, you know, what's your process, everybody, what's your process. So everybody went around the room and said, what's the first thing you think about when you wake up in the morning? And I remember saying, well, the first thing I think about as I try not to think about anything, I really want to have to have an empty, empty, empty brain and see what I can, where I can go from there. So I think that's, my process is you know, starting out, what did I, what did I not do so well yesterday? And , and what's on my mind and what can I do , better? And what am I not done so well in my life? And what can I do , better, because I think you have to have both. Um , and then how I see myself, I think of myself as first and foremost, a communicator, a problem solver , uh, uh, I like to find creative solutions to problems. So branding and marketing and communications, and still are areas that are just, I've always worked in, in media and I've always been attracted to media. So I'm some kind of a mediator, I think, in, in that traditional sense of medium . And I also unfortunate that I have people in my life that I can serve. And so a lot of times I'd get frustrated about , uh, you know, that didn't go so well, that relationship didn't work out. That transaction didn't go the way I wanted it to, but I have to stop and remind myself that I'm lucky to have a lot of people to serve. And , um, and then that kind of takes the pressure off of me, you know? So it becomes sort of a question of what can I do for you? And, I know, I'm this person, that's this and this and this. And , and I know those areas where our strengths and weaknesses, but let's take the spotlight off of that. And what can I do in service to others? And I think that's in , in my maturation aging, I've decided as the place that I most like to be as a place where I can successfully serve others. And then when I can successfully serve them, I can , um, remember that , uh , that who I love and who I like as a choice. And it's not, it's not two way, you know, just because you love other people, it doesn't mean they love you. But , I think , we have an opportunity to serve others and to love others at the highest level. And , um, I used to think in my twenties and thirties, oh, I have a lot to say, I want to say this. And when I say that, actually now I don't think I have that much to say anymore. I basically, I have one message and that's the message. And I look for places where I can, I can serve that message,

Bunny 17:26

That that's a great, what you, just, the thing that I wrote down, because I always do this, I tend to, I tend to end up writing a lot while we're doing these podcasts, but I, you know, I, and you know, this, that my affirmation every morning or my prayer was always , um, let me, you know, let , you thank you for the people that I get to help today. And what you just said was I'm lucky to have a lot of people to serve and that you know, who you love and who you like is a choice, whether they like you back. And I , that's, that's a huge truth that you have to figure out. I mean, it's crazy that I have to get to this age to figure that out. But it is a gift to have a lot of people that you get to serve on a daily basis. And you do that through your, through marketing. And , and we got to talk just for a minute about business because real estate is, is really a service industry. People like to think of it as sales, but it's not it's service. Are you shaking your head?

David 18:36

I totally agree with you. I totally agree . In the short time that I've been working with brokers and brokerages on branding and marketing, and then became licensed myself as, as a broker, the way I think of exactly what you're saying is , um, is, is real estate is a place to help people solve their problems. And everybody needs a week. Everyone needs a place to live, whether it's an apartment or, you know, a mobile home, whatever it is. Um, you know, the question I ask is how can I help you solve the , solve your problems to get to where you want to be? And it really is about service,

Bunny 19:16

But David don't you think that's what people miss in marketing is instead of talking about what they can sell to you, they need to be talking about how they can solve your problem .

David 19:27

Well, one of the that's interesting, one of the things that I've learned , uh, in the digital domain is that marketing is not really about messaging. I always thought, you know , marketing was about telling your story, having a beginning, a middle and an end, and a coherent message. And in fact, in the world we live in now, marketing is about engagement. So it's about an interaction and an ongoing interaction. And if you can have that interaction and continue that interaction, then we can actually get somewhere. But if I'm just trying to tell you something, it's a, w it's a one-way channel. And, and , um, and it's not really that successful. So I think one thing that we miss, it's easy for us to miss in marketing, branding and communications is that it's not just about me pausing long enough for you to say what you need to say. So that then I can say what I'm thinking about. It's really about how can we create an engagement and how can we come back to that? And that's what you do better than anyone I know on social media is Europe every morning, and you have an audience and you're reaching out to your audience every day, consistently it's work, it's it's work , consistently reaching out to your audience and , and being there for them in the way that only you can be there for them. And that's successful. Obviously

Bunny 20:46

Well and I think that that's another thing about communication. And what you just said is that it's not just waiting for an opportunity to, to hit somebody with one shot. I mean, you have, you have to be willing to do you have to be willing to market, not market to people, but communicate with people on a consistent basis. Because now you've got to build trust. It's not like the old days went on Sunday night, we watched Bonanza and we saw an ad for Pall mall cigarettes, or for ring around whisk that got rid of reading around the collar. We consumers don't just want facts anymore. They want to feel like you're engaged with them in some way. Right? Yeah. I didn't, I didn't hear the end of it. You were breaking up just a little bit, but I think you're talking about how communications has changed has changed. And it certainly has. So I wanna talk for a little bit because , and I know this is a big jump, but I want to talk because this is so, so near to my heart, David is the way that you parent , um, because you came to this at a different time of life than some of us, you know, I was like 21 when I had my first child had , so I wasn't mindful anyway ,

David 22:04

I was in my forties

Bunny 22:07

And you seem to do some pretty incredible mindful parenting. And you communicate with Zadrian in a way that I didn't know how to communicate with my kids.

David 22:21

Well, I'm learning every day. And I mean that , my son who's eight is, is, is my teacher really part of my background is I have about 10 years of behaviorism training with horses as an avocation and a passion. And I also did work. I took people when I was going to graduate school. I worked for an outfit or taking people on pack trips in the, in the Rocky mountains and worked for various trainers at that period in my life. So it was a, it was a passion, but it was really also about communications. Um, how I parent is , um, really, that's a big question. Let's see if I can do justice to this.

Bunny 23:08

I mean, well, we're talking about communications in this broad sweep, and yet when I watch you as a parent, and when I first met you, which was when Zadrian was, I don't know if he was four or five, but what I saw, he was four. And what I saw was that you brought a lot of those communication skills and maybe, and maybe all training in , in different, in different disciplines, but you brought a lot of that to your parenting. And you've, you've raised this child who i s really aware and kind, and generous and creative. And, u m, you know, I had a cousin who said to me, once y our only job is to raise kids that you're g onna like as adults, you know, you, you know, certainly you want to make them feel safe, but, but the fact is that when you, when you have kids early in life, you're almost too stupid to know how to be a parent, but you have a lot of energy. And now you bring this mindfulness to parenting that I'm, I'm, I'm in awe of. I just have to tell you, so I'd love for you to share with our listeners your, how it works for you and Zadrian in small b its and b ig b its.

David 24:28

Well, I have to also , credit his mom too , for her active involvement. And Zadrian and I have been traveling , our own journey to that as he is my teacher and me as his, I think, as a facilitator, as a guide , uh , um, as, as an extra set of eyes and ears to say, oh , Whoa, Whoa, Whoa be aware of this. Whoa , look out for that. One of the things that I think I had to learn was on the staircase was that I needed to learn that he needed to fall. And that was really hard , to watch your kid fall. Okay. So it's like, this is the stairs be careful. And that goes in one ear and out the other ear. And I was like, okay, so now it's time for me to let you fall. I have to let you fall. And when I was teaching at the university level, I would sometimes have parents come to me of kids and say, can, can, can Adrian please be in, in the digital animation class, could you please let him in? And I learned to say to parents, I said, you know what, I'm totally, I'm willing to sign any paper to add him to her, to the class, but let me do you a favor. If you want him to be in that class, he needs to come knock on my door and ask me to sign that piece of paper, or he's not going to care about being in the class. So in order for us to be successful, I need you to go ask him to knock on my door and ask for my signature. And I was Adrian. It challenge for me. And an inflection point was definitely like, oh, this is not just about telling them how good he is and communicating and living some sort of fabulous lives that doesn't really exist. But this is about love is about suffering and pain. And I don't think you get to love someone unless you're also willing to suffer for them. And I just think that's part of the, part of the reality. So I've had to learn continuing to learn when , when Zadrian needs to fall and he needs to pick himself up. And , that's, that's not easy because you know, it's not easy, but , uh , I think it's so important. I read something recently where , um, it was from the book , um, is from a woman who traveled around the world, studying, studying native cultures, parenting and native cultures. Hunter-gatherer and Parent is the book. And she said, we as Americans. So over praise, our children, it's just baked in because as Americans we're so positive, we want to do the things we want to leave their friends, you know, and we tend to over praise our children. I started thinking, oh my goodness, that's really right. You know , I want, anytime , you know, a kid, that's something where you want to say, great job, great job, great job. So I stopped doing that and I just did a thumbs up if he did something that was really good. I would just put a thumbs up. So I wasn't like doping him up for the expectation of hugs at the Olympic level. Every time he tied his shoes, I thought that was an interesting point for me is , is , uh , oh yeah. We, we really do over, over satiate on the positivity in life. Life is a balance. We have good days and bad days, we had a rough week this week and I found myself questioning a lot of things. And , I can tell you that story briefly. We soccer started this week and we got to the soccer field and we looked on the rosters and all of the teams had coaches and they had a field assignments. His team did not have a coach, and we didn't know where the field was. And , um, so, and, but he knew his name. He was supposed to be a bulldog. Okay. He was on the bulldog team. Okay. So we get out there and it's chaos. It was, it was just total chaos. It was post COVID returning to soccer. Nobody knows what's going on. And he has a low threshold for that. It's, it's really a challenge area for him. And , uh, and I said, you know, just join these guys. Here's a team. Let's work with these guys. Well , and then a couple other kids came by and they were looking for a place. So I started talking to them and finding their parents and trying to help them find where they were supposed to go, because we've done it before. And Zadrian walks over to me with his head hanging down. And he said, those are badgers. I'm a bulldog. And it was like, oh my goodness. And he was dead serious that he is not a Badger. I was like, oh my goodness. You've got to be kidding me. Now, after all this, you're going to have a meltdown that you're, you're a bulldog and you can't practice with the badgers. And it was so frustrating in that home. And you know what he spiraled and I just had to let him spiral. And I just went and played soccer and he would, he would come in and coming out and he eventually did work through it. But that night I had to spend about 45 minutes. Um , meditating, praying, thinking about my own frustration, because here I was a parent and all the perfect soccer parents were lined up on the side of the soccer field. All the other kids were just happy to jump in on a team that had way too many members. And nobody knew what team they were really playing on, but Zadrian is a rural guy and he wanted to know what's my team and what's my position. And it was too much for him. It was a meltdown. And I was like, oh gosh. So it was actually, it doesn't sound like a big deal, but I want you to know emotionally for me, it was really challenging.

Bunny 30:40

No. So we talked about this that morning when I felt like I needed to give you a call. We talked about me hearing Glennon Doyle, talk about how we have worked so hard to insulate our children in this, this generation of parents have worked so hard to insulate our children from any level of suffering. And she said , suffering is around the corner. It's either going to be next Tuesday or next month. Or we can't convince, we can't create children who are, who don't know what it's like to suffer a little bit. And , um, and she talked, she said, you know, my generation of parents have been sold this bill of goods that we've got to protect our children at any price. And then when something happens, you know, when, like when her kids had to go through her divorce, that level of suffering completely throws them off because they don't know how to deal with it. And she also said, you know, if you want to raise kids who are kind and resilient, you have to think about what creates that in the first place. How did, how did you know, I got to tell you, David, I wasn't particularly kind and resilient when I was 25 years old because I hadn't suffered much. The other thing you said that was interesting when we were talking that morning is that you said, bunny, you wrote this book about gratitude. And I wrote a book about suffering. And I thought, is that, did you feel like prayers of an old dad was a book about suffering? Because it was it sort of integrated this whole practice that you have with Zadrian and, and the things that you hoped for him, but also some dashed hopes as well. I thought that was interesting for you to call it that.

David 32:23

Absolutely. I think another word for suffering is love because you can't have one without the other. No , I don't think we should all walk around with our heads down, crawling on the floor, crying. There's plenty of that in the world, you know, recognize our suffering for what it is, and then get up and try to help other people get up. And , um, and that's what I try to do every day. So , um, there, there definitely is suffering and we are so fortunate, so fortunate in random ways how, how much we have compared to when I traveled to other places in the world, by the way, they have a lot of other things too. We always think, oh, we've got everything. They don't have anything. No, they have a lot. They have more than we have in other areas, but we have incredible material, wealth and abundance at every level. And there are people who don't have it in this country. I don't want to deny that, but there is an enormous amount of wealth in the west. And , and so we, that's our, it's our burden to , as much as it is our blessing, it's also being aware of it and being aware of the impact that it has on other people, I think is important. And prayers of an old dad is really about a journey of being a parent when I wasn't expecting to be a parent being a care provider when I wasn't expecting to be at a care provider , um , putting my career in another place when my career should have been, you know, by the standards should have been first place. And , the lessons of that journey, which it continues today.

Bunny 34:12

Well, so let's talk about the book. Where did that, where did that come from? I mean, where, w at what moment did you, or I know it's not in a moment because it happens over a long period of time when you think I've got all these new scenes in these reflections and this stuff that I feel like it is certainly worth sharing and your book is because it's, so I it's so beautifully done, but talk about the book.

David 34:38

Well , um, I think it, can , you , you actually have a lot to do with that book because I started writing that book when I came back to New Mexico with Zadrian, when I was doing marketing and working in marketing for you and for other brokers and brokerages. But , um, in that time I was having to learn to accept what is and live in reality. And that is hard to do. We all have desires and expectations and crazy thoughts about what we want and who we want with and how we want it. And then there's, what's right in front of us. And what's right in front of us, almost never lies what's right in front of us is just what it is. And I think what I was having to do at that time in my life is except what was in front of me as it presented itself to me, not as I, as I wished it, it had been.

Bunny 35:45

Wow. That whole idea. So, so we, we try to, I got to tell you it's, I don't want to convey , um , this toxic positivity all the time. And in fact , um , I've worried that that's sometimes what we do, what I do, what we do in this platform, but living in reality and , um , saying, you know, sometimes the only thing that I can do is begin. Sometimes the only thing I can do is , um, choose not to go back. Um, and, and at the end of the day, be grateful that I took one step, even though I had hoped to take 10. I feel like that's what you're talking about when you s ave what's right in front of us, never lies.

David 36:42

Yes . I think that's a, that's a, great point. I, I think we tend to overestimate the big achievements in our life. And I think we tend to underestimate the small things in our life and a real world example where that happened for me is when we went into COVID, I stopped having to take my shirts to the cleaners. I stopped having to buy Starbucks every morning and wow, did my checking account show it, you know, just a couple of day , couple dollars a day. Wow. Really, really made a difference. So I think the small things, the small things count more than, than we know , um, when you're jogging down the street and you see someone who doesn't have a home or is living through addiction or whatever their situation is , um, you have an extra bottle of water, you give it to them. You and I probably don't know what that means to a person like that. You know, I , I have had moments. I've had , uh, people in my life comes through my wife. Fortunately I have not experienced addiction. Um, but I've had people come through my life who have lived through addiction. And I , and there've been different points in my life where I'd found someone, you know, by a railroad tracks or in the bushes , um, that was unconscious. And it's sort of like, Hey, are you okay? And I remember one time I was at a gas station and I did have a bottle of water. And I noticed in the bushes really close to the fuel pump that there was a person completely out of it. And, and I went over there and I mean, you have to be careful. And I said, Hey , are you okay? And this guy woke up and I said, here here's some water. And , I didn't realize it, but what I was doing Zadrian was in the back of the truck. And he saw that and I was like, oh, thank you, God, that was such, I don't know how that all happened, but what that was, was a teaching moment about , um, about trying to understand another person's life, another person's point of view, without casting judgment upon it, being there to support someone, however, however little you can. Um, we all have an opportunity to serve someone else in some small way. And , um, that's really what I would like to devote the rest of my life to still being a communicator, still working in media, still , working obviously a lot and real estate now. Um, but to, to serve others. And then what I've learned in personal relationships is that if you really want to understand another person's point of view, what you first and foremost have to do is suspend your own. It's like, oh, I got to suspend my own point of view in order to be able to hear someone else's. And , um, that's another lesson that came out of that book was, wow . If you want to understand another , another person's point of view, you have to suspend your own, you have to make room for their , whatever their life path is. You have to make room for that. And that's an act of not being selfish, of being generous, I think.

Bunny 40:22

Do you think that works with your kids too? I mean, do you think you have to, in order to hear what Zadrian needs, you have to set aside what you want for him?

David 40:30

Uh , yeah.

Bunny 40:34

I mean, it just struck me. I was like, oh gosh, wait. Cause we work so hard to superimpose on our kids.

David 40:43

We, I get totally guilty. We've looked at, you know, from pre-K now through third grade , um, San Diego, Santa Fe , um, we have looked at schools in our own eyes as mother and I, and we have repeatedly gotten the lesson that, or been taught the lesson that what you want in an ideal quote unquote school, that there is such a thing. And there isn't, I've learned is not necessarily what works for them. And , uh , so now it's like, oh, okay, whatever that perfect school is for me is sort of beside the point, because it's got to work for him and he has to navigate it on his own terms. It's not something that I can go in there and they could pre-negotiate for him and have all set up. Doesn't work that way again, he's got a fall and I asked to experience pain . And , um, and so, yeah, I definitely have had lessons on that. That's a great one to mention. I'm glad that you mentioned that.

Bunny 41:47

Well, and I want to go back to that idea of love and suffering love and suffering being some of the same coin because , um, we, you know, there, there's that really obvious piece of love it's suffering. If you love somebody , you're , you're obviously going to suffer when they suffer , or you're going to suffer if you experience some sort of a loss of them, you know , I love my parents. I will suffer when they're no longer on the earth. And, but, but there's also that love of , that if I allow them to suffer and while it breaks my heart, you have to allow a level of suffering somewhere . I can . I keep hearing that you got to let them fall. You got to let them fall. Love and suffering are similar things.

David 42:44

I think that. I think they are, they are definitely related another point to this that I've had to learn. And I think is in prayers of an old dad, is the idea that if you want to win an argument, you need to give up being right. There's no better way to win an argument than to give up being right. And if you can give up being right, that means you can sit in silence, caring, listening, loving. I'm not saying ignoring, but you can sit in the silence of your own words and you can accept what is right in front of you , And you can make room for another by not having to be right. I think that's so important too.

Bunny 43:35

And does that work with Zadrian?

David 43:38

Definitely helps. It's definitely. It definitely has been like, you know what? I'm getting into an argument with an eight year old. I really don't need, it's like, no, no, no. I'm not going to argue with you. Your point of view is what it shouldn't be. I'm going to just let this go. When, when a client or a customer comes at me with forks and arrows, and like, I'm just gonna like take this in for a minute because it's in that space. When you take it in that you might be able to see something new other than what you're hearing, because our brains are really all about. We interpret things, right? The human brain, our human brain , we wired our own brains. We have our own , um, our own views that we've hardwired our own brain. And sometimes we need to make space for another point of view. And I think in that moment, when, if you can, if you can give up being right, if you can listen, if you can think about how you could serve another person in a small, in a small way that doesn't make you , that creates opportunity that you didn't know.

Bunny 44:56

Well, that's another, that's a really another really interesting point is that we tend to think by letting go of our viewpoint, we're giving up an opportunity. But what you're saying, it's that you really create an opportunity, Right?

David 45:09

I think that's right. I think that's easy now you're talking as Bunny, the broker and negotiator.

Bunny 45:17

Well, but I also think a lot about how , we're kind of we're hardwired and like you said, we've created our brain. You know, we've talked about that a lot, especially when we did an interview with Daphne Miller and she talked about how we, we tend to be wired the way that we think and the way that we allow ourselves to think. But , um, when we re you know, we sort of, we're hardwired to think we can't fail, we can't fail. We can't give up. We can't give anything up. You know, that's sort of the human condition. And I know that's especially hard with a small child, but it's, but it's hard in a negotiation. I've been in a horrible negotiation with another broker for the last couple of weeks. And I'm like, we're not even parties to this transaction. Why are we just biting ? And it always brings me back to that, that statement by Seth Godan , who is like, he who fails the most wins. That's what you're saying is let go , let winning stop .

David 46:23

I think another way to , to think of what you're talking about is is that when, when you, when your love for someone else is greater than your need, from that love, in other words, the best relationship is, is when your love for someone is greater than your need from that person. And that's back to this idea, or what are the small things that I can do. I think that, and you know, when you're, when you're really frustrated and you're being attacked personally, I'm a normal human being too. And I was like, wow, it's really hard to work with you right now. You're calling me every name in the book and you would use me every possible thing. And I'm trying to find a solution here. And I think , this it's back to this idea that, that I need to make my consideration, my openness, my appreciation, and do my love for them greater than the need for what I'm going to get out of. It.

Bunny 47:29

I'm so silent part of the time, because I'm trying to... it's like, you're getting my brain to full of higher concepts. It's just wow! It's because it's.. if you can, if your spirit can be generous and let the idea of winning or dominating, or , um, you know, almost recreating someone in your own image, I have to tell you, I tend to, to sort of bristle up when, when I think that somebody is attacking my intelligence, like, are you really, really, I, you have to know yourself well enough to know better than to behave that way, but I do it all the time.

David 48:14

It is hard when someone attacks you personally, Right. Instead of making room for that, instead of accepting that in its totality, we want to fight back. And again, I think it's this idea that, you know, if you just pause, I find that when I can disconnect my reptilian brain and perceive what is in front of my face and its totality that, which is concealed from me is revealed. It all starts to make sense. It's like, oh, okay. And then I don't feel so at fault about, I have plenty of faults. I might've even made a man made a horrible mistake when someone comes at you that way. Um, but what doesn't work is trying to convince them a different way. What doesn't work is attacking them. The only thing that I find that works is letting things be what they are and doing the best that you can do in small ways to rectify the situation. And you have to get back up, you've fallen down. You have, that's what you were talking about. You got to get back up.

Bunny 49:34

And live in reality

David 49:35

And live in reality,

Bunny 49:37

Which is, which is one of those things that I want to put on a post-it note and put somewhere, because , uh , when we talk about perception, you know, I mean, that's another thing that we're talking about here is our perception of what's going on isn't reality.

David 49:54

That's right . That's right. Thank you very much, Lenny . When you're in front of me money , and we're talking, what I'm seeing is the, is the light that Russ has reflected off of you into my eyes. And there's a delay. There's a delay in what, when I'm looking at you as a real person, the physics of the light, that's reflecting into the Iris in my eyes , it's already happened by the time it gets to my eye. So I'm not, I'm not actually, if you want to be really technical about it, I'm not, you I'm seeing what I'm perceiving and you have already happened. So that says a lot right there. It's like, wow. Okay. So, so what I, what I think is the truth. That's what I'm seeing, but that's not necessarily what someone else has seen. And , it's a different thing that what objective way may have actually happened back to making room back to acceptance.

Bunny 50:54

Back to accepting back to not wanting to win , um, back to hard work, and still being a creator and a communicator in that. Sometimes you just have to say, this is what I perceived. I , I get that. I may have it wrong. So how do we go, how do we take small steps and go forward? And , you know , I don't want to wrap this into a neat little package because it's so much to think about. But , um, if you were going to talk to , um, the people that are listening right now, and you were going to give them tips for some high-level mindfulness, that'll , that'll allows them to get that, you know, suffering all suffering is not terrible. It's just a path to more reality. What, what, what would you suggest to folks, if you were talking directly to somebody who's listening and having a hard time with the whole mindfulness.

David 51:52

For one thing, I think that , um, um, you know, it's always interesting to me and I , I, I have the image of Jesus and the image of Buddha, contemporary images in my mind. And one of them has their eyes open and the other one is frequently portrayed with their eyes closed. So one is looking outward and one is looking inward and they're looking in my mind at the same thing. They're, they're seeking. These are, these are teachers who are seeking a higher truth. I think the most important thing , um, for us, when we are trying to be present to have mindfulness is to create a habit because the habit is what will help us when the bullets and the arrows are flying at us when the attacks or have the habit, if we can teach ourselves a small habit, the habit is what makes space to suspend my point of view. I know what happened. I know exactly what happened and what you're saying is not what happened, but I'm going to take a breath. Okay . And I'm going to let you put this out. Um, I really think it's the habit of, of being present of accepting what is of perceiving what's in front of our face and seeing what that reveals when we make room for that of , understanding another person's point of view by suspending our own. And that's where the hard work comes in. We have to learn to suspend our own point of view s o we c an learn from each other and we c an help each other. We all have our own cultural baggage. We have our family baggage, we have all the things, the experiences that have happened to us and we... we don't really live in the same world. Actually. We all have very different, totally different experiences. So I think that in a world where we are increasingly bumping up against each other, the only way forward is to make room for that and accept that for what it is. And if I'm talking to someone individually , um, what I think is, is , um, absolutely necessary. And what has helped me a lot , um, in my own challenges is creating a habit for that, creating an algorithm really that when this happens , um, Wednesday does something that completely sets me off. I'm not going to react that way. And that's hard. That's hard when someone comes at you you're like uses a year or , you know, it was something, you know, didn't happen. It's like, wow, this is really hard for me to communicate with because I know you're so wrong, but that's the problem is when we go to you're so wrong. So take that moment, suspend my point of view, suspend my own belief, make room for the alternative and ask myself, is there a way I can help you? I can't help everyone, but there's so many people I can help. So if I can help you right now, money, I can walk down the hallway. And I bet I can find somebody that I can do something for. And that's really what gives me joy. That's I mean, that's just my makeup. That's what gives me pleasure is serving, serving other people. Do I have to Cyrus ? Do I have expectations? In the second half of my life, that's where I want to spend it is , what can I do for other people?

Bunny 55:33

Wow. I got to tell you, David, I am so grateful that we met each later and that you can send you to be this person I can call early in the morning. And you'll say things to me, like you said that morning, which was wow. This morning at three 30, I wrote down, if you want the water to flow, you have to remove obstacles all the time. I know all the time you were thinking of your disagreed philosopher, who also , um, is , uh , an amazing communicator. So we've covered a lot of different, we've jumped from , uh , to a lot of different Lily pads this morning. We've gotten to a lot of different places, but I'm walking away with a bunch of new wisdom. I'm going to suspend my point of view for a few days.

David 56:22

Bunny I want to thank you for having me on your podcast . I am always impressed by how consistent of a communicator you are, how you find multiple channels to reach your tribe, your people, the people who you serve, and that's impressive and it's hard work. Uh, and so thank you for being an example , uh, in, in that way. And thank you for having me on your podcasts . I'm always happy to have a conversation with you because we learn from each other and I don't have the answers. I don't know anyone who has all the answers, but I'm still looking.

Bunny 57:04

Well. Thank you, David. We'll do it again.

David 57:08

Let's do it again. Thank you guys so much.

Bunny 57:12

That's all we've got today. Friends. I want to thank you for joining the lifesaving gratitude podcast with your host bunny, Terry , that's me and my producer and assistant Johanna Medina. We feel like we're in the business of sharing the stories that save us, and we hope you'll share as well by letting your friends and family know about the podcast follow and like us wherever you listen. And please take the time to leave a review. Whether it's a stellar comment or a suggestion, we are open to suggestions all the time. Also follow us on Instagram at lifesavinggratitudepod. You can also follow me personally at bunnyterrysantafe you can sign up at my website at bunnyterry .com to receive weekly emails about how to become the ultimate gratitude nerd. Thanks so much for checking in.