The Real Santa Fe
Introducing The Real Santa Fe Podcast— (formerly I Love New Mexico) a fresh take focused on the stories, voices, and vibrant community of Santa Fe. Expect the same warmth, spirit, and deep appreciation for New Mexico, now told through the lens of the people who live, work, and create in The City Different. Hosted by Bunny Terry.
The Real Santa Fe
Anne Hillerman Returns: Santa Fe Stories, Dark Winds, and Real-Life Mysteries
In this special episode of The Real Santa Fe podcast, Bunny Terry sits down with New York Times bestselling author Anne Hillerman to discuss her latest gripping novel, Shadow of the Solstice, the newest installment in the beloved Leaphorn, Chee, and Manuelito mystery series. Anne shares the real-life events that inspired her plot—from billion-dollar Medicaid fraud scandals to revivalist cults on the Navajo Nation—and the deep research and cultural sensitivity behind her storytelling.
Anne also offers behind-the-scenes insight into the acclaimed AMC show Dark Winds, based on her father Tony Hillerman’s iconic characters, and talks about what it’s like seeing her work brought to life on screen. If you're a fan of Navajo Nation mysteries, Santa Fe landscapes, crime fiction with heart, or strong female leads like Bernadette Manuelito, this episode is a must-listen.
📚 Learn about Anne's writing process, the true history that shapes her stories, and why the Southwest continues to inspire some of the most vivid characters in modern mystery writing.
🔗 Mentioned:
Anne's website: https://www.annehillerman.com/
Anne's upcoming events: https://www.annehillerman.com/events
🎧 Tune in and stay curious—this is The Real Santa Fe.
Original Music by: Kene Terry
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Speaker 2:Welcome to the Real Santa Fe podcast. We're so excited that you're here for an episode with one of my favorite Santa Fe people. And I'm telling you, if this isn't real Santa Fe, I don't know what is Ann Hillerman, who's one of my favorite authors, has agreed to be on the podcast with us again. I, I couldn't believe it when you agreed the first time, Anne . So this is, it's always a treat, and it seems like every time we do this, we are introducing a new book that she's just published. I counted on in the book that this is number 14. Um, Ann is , uh, a writer of many things, but her latest book is Shadow of the Solstice. It's yet another installment in What, what our great friend Bernie and her sweetheart, she , um, at least in book form, they're not there yet on Dark Winds. I keep waiting, but Ann is the author. She's also one of the executive producers of Dark Winds, which is one of the most popular , um, series on streaming on TV right now. And I, I could talk for a long time, but the most interesting person in the room is Anne . So, hello. I'm so happy you're here.
Speaker 3:Hi, me too. Thank you so much for giving me a chance to talk about my new baby. I'm just so happy to have this book finally out so people can read it.
Speaker 2:I know that we , uh, maybe it was a couple months ago, back around Christmas, I said, can we get together? And you're like, I'm finishing this book. It's a process, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Indeed, and particularly this book was a little more complicated than , uh, a lot of my books have been. Usually when I'm writing a book, I start with the scenery, but with this book, there were a couple things in the news that really got my attention. So I started with those, those giant ideas, and then had to kind of condense them into enough that would be a , a plot and a subplot for a book. And , uh, then when I got it sort of put together, I realized that even though those two stories were really good, it was hard to mesh them together. But luckily I had a really good editor who helped me with it. And yeah, now that it's, now that it's , that it's here, I'm, I'm really happy with it. So, so thank you for giving me a chance to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Oh, I gotta tell you, I, so , um, my husband who reads mysteries as well, said, well , tell me about the , he said, I can tell you're really enthralled with this one. And I said, you know, the thing about reading , um, a Hillerman book First, first, your dads that I read for years , um, especially when I wasn't , when I was living away from New Mexico , um, it's always, and then yours, it's always like stepping back into the room with some of your favorite people. And I was, you are so good at conveying your characters, and, and they're, they're so vivid and they're so real. And so, I , I said, it's so exciting. I'm, I'm like, I'm hanging out again with Bernie and Chi , and Darlene is sober now. It's so <laugh> . It's like all these things that were, I don't wanna give everything away, but there were parts of it that, and I didn't of course, read at the end whether where , where those plot lines came from, but I kept saying, especially the , um, the plot line where Mrs. Raymond ends up in Phoenix. I was like, can this be real? And because it was so , um, so awful. And that's why I couldn't stop reading because I couldn't, I couldn not stand for those, for those characters to be in any sort of danger. But I know they're always gonna be in danger because that's <laugh> . That's, that's where we end up. But thank you for this one. I really liked it.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, bunny , one good thing about writing a series is that readers, readers may have that same sense of apprehension that you had. Are these characters gonna be all right ? But you kind of know if this is like this one book 10 and the series that chances are they're gonna be okay and they're gonna make it through for book 12. So, I , I have to say, I, I really love these characters. And the more I , Jim Chi and Joe Lipor were characters that my dad had developed pretty firmly before he , uh, passed on. And then I began to write the series. But Bernadette Manto was a character he had kind of used as a adjunct, as a walkon. I mean, she, and so when I began writing the series, I elevated her to be a, a full fledged crime solver. So that gave me the , uh, challenge, I was gonna say problem, but mostly challenge of having to think of ways to engage all three of them. And in this, in this book , uh, Joe Lepor is kind of, he comes in a little bit, but he basically gets rest. 'cause he worked real hard in the book before this. So , uh, when the book opens , um, Jim Chi is looking into the discovery of a body that has been found in a , at a uranium waste dump site . And Bernie gets a call to go out on the Navajo Nation to this , uh, uh, this Navajo couple has a site where they host revival meetings, but this time they've , uh, opened it up to, not Navajo people, but a bunch of outsiders. And they tell 'em, oh, we're gonna do a meditation. You know, we're all about love and peace and healing mother earth, but then things start to go wrong. And so Bernie goes out to investigate that. And , uh, in this book I was able to use , uh, who had a woman who had been a minor character, Darlene Mato, Bernie's sister, as more of a main character. So when this book opens , uh, Darlene has decided , uh, that she's, I think she decided in the last book that she's going to become a nurse. So she's going to, to school to get her n get her nursing certificate. And as part of that, she has a job as a home health aide . So Darlene goes to check on the lady who she's helping, and the lady isn't there. So that's like the , the third part of this mystery. So it was great fun weaving in all these elements. But like I said, when I got to the end, I realized I had some loose threads, but thank goodness that I had some good editors, and they pulled everything together and it really made the book stronger than it was when I first imagined it.
Speaker 2:Well, this one was , I mean, they're all suspenseful, but this one with the added piece of the , the storyline that involves Darlene and the woman she was caring for who disappeared, and her son, and some, perhaps some , um, um, um, I , the word I thought of was shenanigans. It's not she shenanigans it's potential fraud, but , um, the things that people are doing to exploit native people , um, uh, that piece of, I mean, I liked all of it, but that piece of it, I just kept thinking, where, what , uh, what is going on? Um , it that was so compelling.
Speaker 3:Well, I have to say, I mean, that was based on real life , unfortunately. No, there was a huge scandal in Arizona , uh, just, just like in my story, A lot of unsuspecting people who were having trouble with drugs and alcohol were basically kidnapped and taken to Phoenix and signed up as Arizona residents, so these fraudsters could steal their Medicaid benefits. And then they were housed, get fed, but never given any treatment. And some of them, when they realized what was up, said, wait a minute, you know, we need to go home now. And the people said, sorry, that wasn't part of the deal, and just left them out on the street. So then they were homeless in a, in a big city, it was really, really awful. Like $2 billion of fraud and 40 people or more died as , as part of this. And that's just what we know about. I mean, I'm sure a lot of them were homeless, didn't have any , any identification, and their bodies are still probably unclaimed somewhere. Anyway, what really caught my attention about this story was that the Navajo Nation , uh, when, when their residents would come and say , you know, what happened to my cousin? What happened to my nephew? I've been looking all over for them. Uh, then the Navajo Police , uh, went to Phoenix and helped bring some of these people home. And so I thought, well, this is really a lovely ending, or at least a lovely start of an ending to a very awful story. And as you know, I, and one of the good things about writing mysteries is that you as a mystery writer have the , uh, sickly the duty as part of the way the genre is set up of ending things with the crime solved , and the bad guys punished her . And so I was happy, even though it doesn't always work out like, like that in real life, I was really delighted to be able to do that in my book.
Speaker 2:Well, and you did this, you did that. You did it so well, and , um, and , and I was so relieved when I got to the part where you talked about how those people were prosecuted for this real life event. I was telling Toby about it, and he said, well, that can't be the truth. And I'm like, no, it is . But you did that in Lost Birds as well. I mean, when you, I mean, that is a another horrific , um, event in , in Navajo history. I , I mean, other tribes I'm sure as well, and Pueblos, where children were basically taken away from their families and the families were lied to, and then they were sold elsewhere into other families all over the country. And you, you did that, you covered that one very well. So kudos to you. I, I love, I know that when I'm reading one of your books, you're hitting on something that's important and, and, and you do it really well, so, oh ,
Speaker 3:Well, thank you. You know, one thing that as a reader, when I am reading fiction, I love having a story that moves along and having characters that engage me, but I also like books that teach me something. And so that's one of my , uh, I guess you'd say subversive goals when I'm, when I'm writing my books. And I also , uh, like to explore my own curiosity and learn something in the process of researching the story. So I, that's what sustains me as a writer, and I hope that's what is, is , uh, keeping my readers engaged too
Speaker 2:Well, and I does is that part of, I mean, it feels like that's what dad did as well when he started his, how many books did he write before he passed away? How , how many are in that ? He wrote ,
Speaker 3:He wrote , uh, 17 in the Jolie porn , Jim Chi series. He wrote two standalone novels. He wrote a whole bunch of nonfiction. He was a real go-getter. And it's amazing to think he wrote all those books. He had a , for most of his life, he had a full-time job either as a journalist or as a college teacher. And he raised us six kids. So, you know, if I ever start feeling sorry for myself, I think, well, hey <laugh> , who's my role model here. Yeah, of
Speaker 2:Course,
Speaker 3:I had my mother, and my mother was brilliant. She took care of every detail of life, so dad didn't have to worry about it. So, so I don't feel too guilty if I have to take a day off
Speaker 2:And, and I want to speak because we can't assume that everybody who's listening knows all about you or your dad or, but you , um, he was recognized and , and I, and I, and you have been too, for being very true to the Navajo culture. I mean, you're not an outsider who came in and just made up, you know, if you, you , um, you both have immersed yourself in the culture. And the coolest thing is that I learned a lot of new Navajo words , um, and, and there is a glossary in the back. But , um, tell me about that. Tell me about the relationship you have with that group of people with that tribe.
Speaker 3:Um, that was really one of the real gifts that my dad gave me. He had built such goodwill with, with the Navajo people over the years, his years of writing the stories that when I decided maybe I could continue this series and I would have a question to ask, whoever I asked was always very gracious and forthcoming with me. And sometimes , uh, the answer was , uh, you really shouldn't talk about that. And that was fine. I mean, then I pulled back, and I think that maybe is, I don't think my dad got that answer so much. You know, times have changed since 1970 when dad began that series. But one thing that makes me really happy, if, if ever I'm doing a talk, oh , say in Farmington at the Farmington Public Library , um, last time I did a talk there, maybe a third of the audience were Navajo people, and they had a lot of really good questions. And then afterwards , uh, say the, a Navajo grandmother and the daughter and the granddaughter all came up and they had me sign their books, and then they said, oh, well , we'd like to get a picture taken with you. I felt like I was a , an honor and celebrity. And then the grandmother said, you know, I love your dad's books, but I think it's about time somebody realized how strong we Navajo women are. So I thought
Speaker 2:<laugh> love that
Speaker 3:For saying that. Yeah. Yeah. I loved it too.
Speaker 2:That's, that's great. And can you give people that don't know some perspective on the size of the Navajo Nation? And I , I mean, what it really is is like for the, the Navajo Police force to try to cover that,
Speaker 3:It's, it's a , a very , uh, complicated and dangerous job. The Navajo Nation is about the size of New England, and I think there are , I'm saying this from memory, and I'm, I haven't looked it up lately, but there are something like a hundred officers who are covering this whole area. It's divided into five different , uh, subdistricts. And I mean, those officers, some are patrol officers like my Bernie Manto, but you know, some are detectives, some are guys who specialize, say, in , uh, crimes Against Children. I mean, they have all of the, the departments or a lot of the departments that say an urban police force would have, but just not the funding and not the staff. And I think it's remarkable that they do as, as fabulous a job as they do. I'm, I'm real , my hats are off to them, or my hat is off to them, <laugh> , or in fact , two hats, they both be off to them. It's,
Speaker 2:You know, I know I lived in Farmington, and so I know that country, but it'll be like, Bernie gets in the car and she's going somewhere to do something, and it's a long drive. And I'm thinking, yes, it is. It's like, it could be an hour or two to get to the places that she's describing on dirt roads, perhaps without cell service. That's ,
Speaker 3:And then she gets there and she's dealing with a, say a , a dangerous person, you know? So maybe somebody who is, has some, some mental health problems or has had too much to drink, and she's basically by herself. So she has to use, she has to use her common sense. You know, she can't just like, you know, pull out, pull out her gun and threaten to shoot the sky . She's got to have that kind of compassion and sense of, I , I mean, there was a lot of talk about community policing, and I think the Navajo Nation is kind of the, the macrocosm of community policing. You know, a lot of times when, when they would go out to a call, chances are the person who is, who needs help is somebody who's related to them or related to somebody they know. So it's a little different than just dealing with a , a stranger who's out of control. So that, I mean, and , and in a way it makes it easier for me as a writer, because I don't have to deal with all of this fabulous technology now that police departments have. It's kind of like going back in time a few years to deal with something that's a little more basic and a little more of the, I guess you could say, the human element of solving crimes. You know, in , instead of calling up a national database, you just think, what do I know about this guy? And what can I figure out from his body language or from the way he's talking, or from the way his house looks? So anyway, I never so much enjoying enjoying writing , writing this series. Do you think we can talk about Dark Wind for a minute or
Speaker 2:Two? Yes. I, that's what I wanted to segue into that by saying, of course, in Dark Winds, they had no cell phones . And is it the funnest, I mean, it's so much fun, it's so smart. Are I, I don't recall. And and tell me if I'm wrong, were you an executive producer in the first series , in the first , um, season? You have been for Forever
Speaker 3:Have been the only , I have to say, while I would love to take credit for how wonderful the show is, the only thing I actually produced was my signature on the contract, which gave them right to use my, use my dad's stories, and to use the, the first four of my books in the, in the series. But yeah, I, I'm really thrilled with it. I think , uh, I think they were so smart. The casting, I think is, is just really, really right on. And then the fact that they have incorporated so many native people in the, in the writer's room as directors just everywhere on , everywhere on the set, I've been lucky enough to , uh, uh, be able to watch some of the filming. And it's just so uplifting to see, to see such wonderful people working on such a wonderful show. They had some interns from the Institute , Institute of American Indian Arts who were working with them. They've really done a fine job of reaching out to the, to the native community. So I am, I give him a two big thumbs up,
Speaker 2:So I keep hearing , um, I , I mean, I think everybody's brilliant. I keep hearing that. And , and I'm not, I'm not done yet with season three. I'm this close, but I keep hearing and seeing that everybody's like, oh, Z McLaren, he's up. He's, he's gotta get an Emmy this year. It's so amazing. It's such, I mean, the acting is , um, is so good. And the directing, I'm , I'm good friends with Chris. Um, he's, Chris Air is a neighbor of mine, and I'm these guys, they've got it. I mean, it's, it's so good. And I loved the little piece where , um, Robert Redford and George RR had cameos in the jail. I mean, if you guys haven't seen Dark Winds, you've gotta turn it on right now and watch it from the
Speaker 3:Beginning. We'll wait till our
Speaker 2:<laugh> They what?
Speaker 3:Wait till our interview's over and turn it on.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely not yet. Yes. Not yet, but I'm, I'm so what I , I know that Johanna was so good to create this, this , um, outline, but I was really interested to know, is there anything that they, that has appeared in Dark Wind that you've been like, oh , I know exact , that's exactly the way it should have been. That's exactly the way my dad, or I, it just thinks , I'm wondering if there's some part of it where you just had this aha moment. It was like, boy, did they nail that?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. In the, in the very first season where they, they introduced Jim Chi and I , I wasn't, I, I wasn't so thrilled with, with the Jim Chi in the first season, but they, when he comes in, Bernadette Manto gets to be his boss. And I think, okay, this is <laugh> , this is my Bernie , this is great. There's a , a , i , I love the way they incorporated the landscape into, into the filming. A lot of what happens in my books and in dad's books is time where one of the characters is driving in a car, and they're thinking, and when you're writing a book, you can get away with that, but you cannot get away with that on , in a TV show. You know, something has to be happening. So I think they've done just a marvelous job of kind of using the , the books of Dads that they've used so far as inspiration and then moving the stories forward from there. So I'm, I'm really thrilled with it.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited to see what happens. And, and they're filming season four. Have you been out to watch any of that?
Speaker 3:I haven't had a chance to. Not yet. It's, I did get to watch the , the very, very last scene of season three, though. And oh , my, the wind was blowing. It had , there's horses in it. The horses weren't cooperating, like all kinds of things. Oh . Then it started to rain and they had to any , anyway, it was maybe three hours or maybe four. It was forever. And finally we see the scene, they film it, and , uh, then Chris Ayers calls me over and he says, you know, look at this. And I got to see it right through his, the, the, the way it was gonna look in the final. And it was, it was perfect. And I thought, gee, they say so much just with an expression. And then I thought, golly, I'm glad I'm not in the TV business, because I could write the scene in like two. I mean, it might not be as , as as emotional, but it would be the same scene in like two paragraphs, you know? So it gave me great, great respect for the, the talent and the creativity that, that those actors and directors and everybody involved with. It has,
Speaker 2:It's so exciting. And I want folks to know that if you're, I mean, it's, it's filmed primarily here. I don't, I , um, I mean, and , uh, but if you're driving north on the road between Santa Fe and Pake , and you look over at the , um, um, at the , um, oh my gosh, why Camel Rock , the Old Camel Rock Casino? You'll see all of those old vehicles from the seventies that they're using. It's, it's, Johanna and I are gonna have to go up and just do a little YouTube, a little reel of all those vehicles sitting there. 'cause it's so cool to see all those , um, vehicles from, you know, when I was a little girl sitting out there on the set. It's so fun in that back lot. So it's here, they're doing it. It's so cool. Yeah . So what's next? First of all, where can people find the new book?
Speaker 3:Um, I did a , I did the book launch at Collected Works , and they have a lot of signed copies. Um, on a Saturday I'm going to Barnes and Noble. I'm, I , I am going to do a little talk about my book, and I'll have some signed books there. And then I'm doing Albuquerque, Durango Prescott, and then I'm coming back to Santa Fe back to back to Public Attention in Santa Fe on May 17th. I'm doing an event with Nassario Garcia and a Navajo poet named , uh, AYA Vanaya Yazi , uh, for the, for the School of the Dance Research. And , uh, if anybody wants to, wants to know about that, they can just look on the SAR website. And all my events are on my website too. It's just anne hillerman.com, so.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Perfect. And , um, what do , what do you want , uh, what do you want folks to get from this book?
Speaker 3:That's a really good question. I think one of the themes in this book is that things aren't always as they seem, and people who seem pretty dark maybe can change. And people on the, on the other hand, people, some people can seem like they're all light and roses and they really aren't. And I guess the, maybe the bottom line is that in the end, if we all take care of each other, things are gonna work out okay. I mean, that's what happens in the , uh, the, the cult Gone Wrong story. And that certainly is what happens in the, the sober living , uh, Darlene to the rescue story, I guess be , be a do not despair. Keep, keep your optimism tuned up . I think that , I think that's the message.
Speaker 2:Do not despair. I love that. Are you working on something new?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm working on book 11. It's going to be set at Kenya of , of the Bernie stores . It's gonna be set at Kenya Dee . So after , after Durango, I'm gonna detour and do another, another. At least look at the overlooks at Kenya Dee before I go to Prescott. So,
Speaker 2:Well, Anne , once again, we, we've, we could talk for another hour and a half about all of these. I, I want folks to know that Anne is so amazing at her craft, but also so generous and so kind. I've gone now to a number of your readings, and I'm always struck by how you are just as curious about the people you are meeting as they are about you. And that's really a huge gift to give that to your readers. So thank you for doing that and, and your stories . I , I mean, they make us think, they make us feel , but most of all, it makes me really proud to be somebody who has lived in the Southwest. Always. You, you portray it so beautifully. You it, and, and its people so beautifully. So thank you for doing that.
Speaker 3:Oh , thank you. I have to say, living in, having lived in Santa Fe for more than 40 years, I think has really nurtured my spirit. There's just something about this place that makes it okay to take chances with your creative energy, and I very, very much appreciate that.
Speaker 2:I can't say anything else after that. Take care to everybody who's listening. Be sure to grab a copy of Shadow of the Solstice Stream Dark Winds for sure. 'cause you're gonna be sorry if you don't, and don't forget to support your local independent bookstore. I bought my copy at Collected Works . This is the Real Santa Fe podcast. Until next time, be well, and stay curious.